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P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -1- ********************************* Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 15 73277,305 WPL 30 Christopher F. Chab 20 70426,1214 LIS 30 Mike Sch. 23 76703,1077 SFG 30 Gary Y(Catalog) 24 72436,1771 CUL 30 SOFTWARE COUNTRY 27 76703,4224 KCI 30 Tom H 29 76367,200 NAS 30 walt 31 72477,3703 SCS 30 Mark R. (OSS) 32 76703,207 CAP 30 Mark S. (B.I.) 36 71446,1362 DET 30 J. Weaver Jr. 39 72337,13 HAR 30 Clay(ANALOG) 40 70775,712 MIA 30 Dan R. 41 73307,2755 RPA 30 ANDREW ZIMMERMAN 43 76703,2011 CSJ 30 dick b. 44 73537,3074 SCS 30 MARTY WILSON 45 75146,3702 HLY 30 STANLEY FINCHLEY 46 76703,4061 RIC 30 Keith L. 48 73225,450 SFG 30 Kyan Software 49 74256,1105 SMO 30 PB 50 71066,337 SYR 30 John DeMar (QMI) dgg<-Ok, I promised a prompt start. dgg<-I'd like to open with introsand apologize for dgg<-blowing the piracy.txt name in the bulletin griffin) Oh I didn't realize it was an adventrue game where you figure out the name! dgg<-If everyone is ready, gavel sound >bang,bang< Mike Squire: (All rise?) dgg<-In alphabetical order by the company they represent, I am pleased to dgg<-introduce: Kyan Software: [parliamentary procedures mode] MS: Mark Skapinker-Director of Product Development-Batteries Included - MS: Author of The Isgur Portfolio System and Thunder! The Writers Assistant. MS: Representating BI, one of the largest publishers of productivity MS: software for Atari computers: MS: The widespread piracy of commercial software is creating an MS: environment in which publishers are losing significant revenue. MS: BI has for the past two years issued most of its new releases MS: in unprotected form. We consider copy protection to be an MS: inconvenience to honest end-users, no longer meeting the needs MS: of either publishers or consumers. An extensive discussion MS: paper written by Michael Reichmann, President of Batteries MS: Included, is available in DL8 for downloading. The file is MS: PIRACY.TXT. dgg<-and TH: Tom Hudson-Independent Developer-SIG*ATARI SYSOP-DEGAS-CAD-3D - TH: and other Atari Titles as well as prolific PD contributions to Atari TH: Software and numerous articles and programs for various Atari TH: magazines: TH: As an independent software developer whose sole source of TH: income is the sales of my products, the piracy issue is a major TH: concern of mine. The way I see it, there are two types of TH: "pirates" (read "thieves"). The first type of software thief TH: copies software and documentation and sells it, almost as a TH: business. These are apparently relatively rare. The type of TH: software thief I am most concerned about is the casual copier TH: who makes a copy for a friend, then that person makes a copy TH: for another friend, ad infinitum. THIS is the copying we need P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -2- ********************************* TH: to stop. If we don't, people like me will have to abandon the TH: Atari market because of the lack of sales. I will personally TH: make this decision later this year, and I hope I can continue TH: to produce Atari software. dgg<-and FC: Frank Cohen-Representing Regent Software-RegentWord, RegentBase, FC: Regent Spell, and other productivity software for the Atari ST: FC: As a developer and user of software and professionally, I FC: oppose copy-protection. As a marketer of software, I find the FC: existence of "hackers" and a very bad history of software FC: piracy upsetting. When I first heard of the ST my reaction was FC: that it could rid Atari of the 8-bit reputation and be looked FC: upon as a business and home productivity tool. Unfortunately, FC: Atari did not present itself firmly or decisively when the ST FC: came out. Many dealers were confused about pricing policy on FC: Atari's ST software. This set an assumption, that ST software FC: is free. It is not. Regent doesn't fear "hackers" or "pirates", FC: its the attitude that making a copy of software is alright FC: between friends, between a dealer and a customer, or between FC: user group members. For this reason, protection is a necessary FC: first step to correct the "laissez-faire" attitude about our FC: products. dgg<-and DD: David Duberman-Product Manager Shanner-dual double-sided floppy DD: drive for the 520 ST-two multi-purpose desk accessory programs, a DD: clock/calendar cartridge, a full-color word processor, and the Shanner DD: Planner, a traveling executive portfolio-Shanner International Corp. DD: is a publisher and distributor of software and a distributor of computer DD: accessories and peripherals for the Atari ST series and other DD: computers: DD: As we're fairly new in the business, we don't yet have a firm DD: policy on copy protection. None of our software products is DD: copy-protected. We include statements with an explanation in DD: our documentation requesting the user not to pirate the DD: software. As for suggestions for stopping piracy, aside from DD: education I really can't think of a way as long as software is DD: distributed on floppy disks. dgg<-Dave, unfortunately will be unable to join us today. dgg<-and JD: John DeMar-President-Quantum Microsystems, Inc. Author of ST-Talk JD: and soon-to-be-released ST-Net local area network. John has been a JD: member of SIG*Atari for 4 years and has contributed to the public domain JD: along with his commercial products. JD: The piracy problem is simple to understand but difficult to JD: control. Most pirates seem to consider copying software to be JD: as criminal as not stopping completely at a stop sign! What JD: needs to be understood is how widespread the effects of JD: software piracy are. My company is a small group of dedicated JD: people who work 60 or more hours a week to produce the best JD: possible products at lowest prices possible. Weve been pleased JD: with the success of ST-Talk and contribute this to the JD: price/performance ratio it has offered. We will keep publishing JD: un-protected software as long as its profitable and as long as JD: our customers appreciate our efforts! dgg<-and JW: J. Weaver is currently the Senior Programmer for Factory JW: Programming. He is the author of over 20 commercially published computer JW: programs on several different microcomputer systems, including five for JW: the Atari ST series (ALT, CALENDAR, CARDS, CORNERMAN, and MI-TERM), and P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -3- ********************************* JW: has written several computer related magazine articles, most recently in JW: Soft Sector magazine. He is the National Recording Secretary of CHART JW: (Computer Hobbyists Against Raiders and Thieves), an international JW: organization of computer users and manufacturers dedicated to the legal JW: and ethical use of computers. He is also the SysOp of the MichTron JW: Griffin BBS (313-332-5452). JW: As a long-time professional programmer, I would estimate that JW: at least half of my potential income (and that of most other JW: program authors) is lost to the effects of software piracy. I JW: deeply resent the fact that so many people take advantage of JW: the unique circumstances of this industry to rob me and my JW: fellow programmers of the already minuscule royalties we JW: receive for the (average) three to six months of work that goes JW: into each and every program we sell. I feel just as strongly, JW: however, that the solution to software piracy is NOT copy JW: protection OF ANY KIND. Copy protection only serves to foster a JW: bad attitude on the part of the honest computer user. JW: See the text files in dl8 for a full policy statement and CHART JW: recommended warranty and (c) policy statement. dgg<-and Gordon Monnier of Michtron (who was good enough to send me a statement that I must publically admit I personally lost!), as well as Gary Yost & Patrick Bass of ANTIC, Clayton Walnum of ANALOG, and several others whom I was unable to get thru to in time to get statements from. With these preliminaries covered, let's take questions and comments from our guests, after which we will entertain comments from the audience. Mark S. (B.I.):? dick b.:! Gary Y(Catalog):! Mark S. (B.I.): Let us all agree that we all agree that piracy Mark S. (B.I.): is a major problem for the entire industry Mark S. (B.I.): So what, what can we do about it? Mark S. (B.I.): I would like to offer a different perspective Mark S. (B.I.): Is it possible that piracy can be solved if a Mark S. (B.I.): hardware solution is made by Atari (Or any other hardware Mark S. (B.I.): manufacturer). Say, something like a little box Mark S. (B.I.): costing $5 or less that could take credit cards Mark S. (B.I.): that are sold with software? Mark S. (B.I.): You could ask WHAY HAS THIS NOT BEEN DONE BEFORE? Mark S. (B.I.): It is my contention that hardware manufacturers do NOT MIND Mark S. (B.I.): the fact that there are pirates. They can get people to spend Mark S. (B.I.): all there money on hardware, and then get people Mark S. (B.I.): to need more memory after pirating a bunch of software. Mark S. (B.I.): Does anyone beleive that we could convince Atari that it is Mark S. (B.I.): to all of our advantage to make a hardware solution? or would J. Weaver ! Mark R. (OSS):! Mark S. (B.I.): this weaken them too much when consumers decide which sofwtare Mark S. (B.I.): to buy? ga dgg<-Thanks, Mark, Dick B. ga dick b: As a consumer I've already. Gordon Monnier: I am on as griffin dick b: noticed the dramatic drop off in the availability of new 8-bit. Gordon Monnier: er thats Gordon Monnier from MichTron dick b: software. I've also been repeatedly irritated by "protection". dick b: schemes that treat my double density drives as pirate drives. dick b: (I'm afraid to buy). dick b: As a hobbyist, dick b: I can't seriously consider trying to earn some cash on the side. dick b: by writing software P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -4- ********************************* dick b: as an attorney, I think software authors have to be vigorous about prosecuting dick b: persons who steal software. dick b: As a Sysop, I'd like to see the SIG take a more active role in prosecuting dick b: piracy. dick b: we have organizations on a national level which are fighting. dick b: theft but no effective way of reporting violators we know about. Fred Wade: There is at least one hdwre prot. scheme running on the HP 350 Fred Wade: It's inconvenient. dick b: I think CompuServe could be a critical link between the public and the dick b: software houses in fighting piracy. GA dgg<-Please standby, Fred, thanks. dgg<-Ok, Gary Yost, ga. Gary Y(Catalog) * Clay (ANALOG): matt: use your name, so we know who you are. Gary Y(Catalog): None of the software in The Catalog is protected, Gary Y(Catalog): (with the exception of one game), but that doesn't mean Gary Y(Catalog): that I'm not 'afraid' of piracy. My background with Gary Y(Catalog): software theft goes way back to 1982, when I was with Gary Y(Catalog): Atari. We hired an investigator in those days who would Gary Y(Catalog): go around shutting down BBS systems using scare tactics. Gary Y(Catalog): Some of you might remember Mad Dog. He was _very_ effective. Mike Sch:! Gary Y(Catalog): I propose that Antic and Analog work together, creating Matt R(ANALOG):? Gary Y(Catalog): an ad and education campaign in the magazines, Clay (ANALOG):? Gary Y(Catalog): backed up by a group of Atari publishers, who would Gary Y(Catalog): invest a small amount of money to hire an Gary Y(Catalog): investigators services. The magazines would publish Gary Y(Catalog): lists of BBS's and user groups who've been shut down MARK<SC>:! Gary Y(Catalog): in the past month. I feel that this activistic GM: gm! Gary Y(Catalog): method is the ONLY way to deal with piracy. I ALSO feel Gary Y(Catalog): that this is what the Software Publishers Association OUGHT Gary Y(Catalog): to be doing. But they're totally ineffective. I want Gary Y(Catalog): to propose a new organization of publishers who have Gary Y(Catalog): clear goals to shut these guys down. Now, about casual Gary Y(Catalog): piracy, that's a different matter. Gary Y(Catalog): Education MAY help that, but I have my doubts. Gary Y(Catalog): There are a LOT of honest people out there, but there Gary Y(Catalog): are a lot of dishonest ones too. I still haven't figured Gary Y(Catalog): out what we can really do about that. ga dgg<-I am going to try to recognize ! before ? to keep the text in order. Matt R(ANALOG): I don't have a ? but a ! (if the latter means comment.) dgg<-and we already have a que of 8 ! & ? dgg<-O, the following will please comment in order. Clay (ANALOG): I think ANALOG would like to respond to Antic dgg<-J Weaver, Mark @ OSS, then Tom Hudson.ga J. Weaver:* dgg<-JW, would you yield for a sec? J. Weaver: Sure-ga. dgg<-Clay, shoot. Clay (ANALOG): Okay, thanks. I think Gary's idea is Clay (ANALOG): super. One of the main problems software companies have is that they just Clay (ANALOG): don't have the funds to fight the theft of their P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -5- ********************************* Clay (ANALOG): products. I would like to see what Gary suggested happen. If all people Clay (ANALOG): involved were willing to contribute a small amount to the cause Clay (ANALOG): something could be done. I feel a little out of place here Clay (ANALOG): since ANALOG doesn't have the same problems the rest of you do. Clay (ANALOG): We don't publish software in the same manner, so piracy is not a great Matt R(ANALOG):! Mark S. (BI):! dick b:? Clay (ANALOG): think education is of great importance Clay (ANALOG): and have dedicated a lot of magazine space to the cause. ga Clay (ANALOG): ga dgg<-Ok, I think Compute whould like to talk to you both Clay (ANALOG): I think I said piracy was not a great problem for ANALOG per se, since Clay (ANALOG): we publish in a different manner. Does that Clay (ANALOG): fill the gap? Clay (ANALOG): ga dgg<-Yes. dgg<-JW, I should offer ANTIC back the floor, but dgg<-do want to keep things rolling, so ga. J. Weaver:* J. Weaver: Two brief comments - J. Weaver: First, about the hardware protection scheme that someone suggested earlier J. Weaver: From my experience, the average effective "shelf life" of a software CP J. Weaver: scheme is about 1 or 2 months. Why should a hardware CP method be any J. Weaver: different? What we would wind up doing is spending man-years and megabucks Erik W. (Kyan):! Mark S. (BI):! J. Weaver: coming up with a fancy hardware box, just to have someone circumvent it after J. Weaver: a couple of weeks. The answer lies in education and enforcement, not in some J. Weaver: fancy new protection scheme which wilil just inconvienience everyone. dgg<-Mark Rose, you're next, after I make up my faux pas with Gordon J. Weaver: Second, as to that enforcement-I really don't think we need another SPA J. Weaver: or ADAPSO to funnel our efforts-what we REALLY need is to get some real J. Weaver: cooperation from the FBI and other law enforcement agencies. I recently J. Weaver: turned over a COMPLETE piracy case to the FBI on a silver platter, and was Dave S.) ust 30 J. Weaver: told that they were "too busy catching bank robbers and drug pushers" J. Weaver: (that's a direct quote, BTW) to persue a mere copyright violation. With this J. Weaver: type of attitude on their part, it's easy to see why we still have a big J. Weaver: piracy problem. J. Weaver: ga dgg<-Thanks, JW. Mr. Monnier, ga. Then Mark @ OSS. P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -6- ********************************* dgg<-Gordon? J. Weaver: Gordon's having a slight problem-bump him down one space. Dan R: Noted Mark S. (BI):! dgg<-Ok, Mark Rose, ga Matt R(ANALOG):! Mark R(OSS): Again about a "$5 hardware solution". There are still problems Mark R(OSS): 1. It must cost much more than $5 in low quantities, while being Mark R(OSS): very economical at higher volumes. 2. It must be small. and 3. Mark R(OSS): It will not stop all piracy. We have used a "hardware solution" Mark R(OSS): in our 8-bit products in the form of a special cartridge with extra Mark R(OSS): circuitry, and we still have had piracy of two forms. First, Mark S. (BI): (Please can I reply?) dgg<-Ok, Thanks, Mark. Tom, your up with Matt on deck. dgg<-GA, Mark. Mark R(OSS): people have just duplicated the circuitry. And second, Mark R(OSS): a "disk version" has appeared on various bulletin boards Mark R(OSS): However, I still favor a hardware protection scheme (if protection Mark R(OSS): is used) to a diskette oriented scheme) Mark R(OSS): Also, our lawyer quoted 10,000 dollars to prosecute one of the Mark R(OSS): violators. That's way too much for a small firm. ga Gary Y(Catalog):! dgg<-Ok, >bang, bang< dgg<- Tom Hudson, ga. Tom H:* Tom H: I think it's pretty obvious that no protection scheme Tom H: will be fully effective. We build 'em, and a week or a month later Tom H: somebody has cracked it and the program's everywhere Tom H: I can't see wasting a lot of effort on protection (besides, it Tom H: alienates honest users w/ hard drives, etc. even though a hardware-based Tom H: solution could take care of this. We have to stop piracy 2 ways, with Tom H: some sort of effective prosecution and education. Has anyone ever spoken Tom H: to legislators on the subject of prosecution? The fact remains, the Tom H: software companies have to stop theft somehow. The magazines DO have a Tom H: stake in stopping piracy -- ad revenue. If a company fails, goobye ads. Tom H: Magazines like ANALOG and Antic have a very importan(Clay (ANALOG):! Tom H: t interest in stopping piracy. ga dgg<-OK dgg<-Let me intervene for a second dgg<-Mark @ OSS, then Mark @BI, then Matt Ratcliff.ga Matt R(ANALOG): Who? Mark R(OSS): I didn't put in a "!", but if you want, I'll speak. ga dgg<-Mark Rose? You still with us?ga dgg<-hehe, it was 1/2 hour ago. dgg<-Yield to Mark S? then to Mike Schoenbach.ga Mark R(OSS): Just ga. Others have been waiting. ga Matt R(ANALOG): I thot I was up? dgg<-GA Matt. Matt R(ANALOG):* Matt R(ANALOG): Thanks. Matt R(ANALOG): I think OSS and ICD have the right idea with bank swithc carts Matt R(ANALOG): ICD has a custom swithcer circuit Matt R(ANALOG): Not a bad technique actually. MATT SINGER: bUT ! Matt R(ANALOG): I like program development languages in carts. P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -7- ********************************* Matt R(ANALOG): Games, right why bother. Matt R(ANALOG): Maybe if atari provided a mass copy service of some sort Matt R(ANALOG): for the samall guy so he didn't Matt R(ANALOG): have to get into the hardware business. Matt R(ANALOG): But, I don't think it is the BBS or user group that is the worst Matt R(ANALOG): but the guy next door Matt R(ANALOG): who talks a friend into buying the hardware . Matt R(ANALOG): then "copies the works:" for him Matt R(ANALOG): maybe just a favor or something. How can you prosecute one Matt R(ANALOG): person. Matt R(ANALOG): You can, if you got the bucks Matt R(ANALOG): but whoever does it looks like the heavy duty bad guy Matt R(ANALOG): I don't think prosecution on such a samll level will work Matt R(ANALOG): I think people need to be informed how much ity hurts Matt R(ANALOG): every one I talked to at CES. Matt R(ANALOG): and asked "Why isn't there more out for the XE" Matt R(ANALOG): the common denominator was "poor sales, probably piracy" Matt R(ANALOG): People want new software for their machines . Matt R(ANALOG): If they realize that it is helping to obsolete their PB: Where I once could languish 6-9 months on 30K 6502 object code, PB: now I must propose, design, create, lay out, code and polish about Matt R(ANALOG): hardware when they pirate it, maybe it will change Matt R(ANALOG): for example . Matt R(ANALOG): People were enraged when EA dropped support for the XE dgg<-Pat, please std by. Matt R(ANALOG): Antic encouraged write in campaign Matt R(ANALOG): it worked! EA saw the demand and met it. Matt R(ANALOG): When developers see no profit they wont support it. Matt R(ANALOG): it is up to us to educate the end user. Francis Russo) (EA?) Erik W. (Kyan): Electronic Arts, Francis Matt R(ANALOG): as I'm trying to do in some of my writeupsa significant Matt R(ANALOG): part of the CES writeup. It must become socially unacceptable Francis Russo: Erik, Thank Matt R(ANALOG): until then, not a lot can be done except to educate. GA Matt R(ANALOG): ga dgg<-Next is Mike Schoenbach dgg<-then Mark<SC>.ga dick b:? Mike Sch:* Mike Sch: What keeps people on an honest level Mike Sch: in all situations is the threat of punishment. Mike Sch: Most of you have been stressing education. I feel Mike Sch: that education is _VERY_ important. But what is more Mike Sch: important is to actually treat software theft as a crime Mike Sch: and, as with all crimes, the violator will be punished. Mike Sch: This is not so, for many reasons. I think Mike Sch: that the local BBSs are the main problem and instead of Mike Sch: advertising that they were closed down, people need to Mike Sch: be informed about what ACTUALLY happened to the SYSOP of Mike Sch: the BBS. Mike Sch: As a consumer, I feel like I am being Mike Sch: treated like a criminal with all these software Mike Sch: protection schemes. And all schemes will eventually Mike Sch: be cracked, so I don't think that is the answer. I must Mike Sch: stress that I think punishment is the answer, but I don't Mike Sch: see it as a reality. ga dgg<-Mark<SC>,ga. PS, Mike, Steve and I had success with PM's board.ga P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -8- ********************************* MARK<SC>:* Mark S. (BI):! MARK<SC>: This is a personal comment on the vigialante hunt MARK<SC>: I ran a BBS and Mr. Mad_dog shut it down MARK<SC>: even though I NEVER used it to trade MARK<SC>: copyrightd software MARK<SC>: it's sole purpose was to distribute my MARK<SC>: own software placed in the public domain MARK<SC>: If this investagor is payed by the bbs he MARK<SC>: shuts down then It will NEVER work MARK<SC>: GA dgg<-Mark dgg<-I'd like to attempt a breif response Clay (ANALOG):! Gary Y(Catalog):! dgg<-It seems to me unlike.y that anyone can "shut down" a board dgg<-that is within the realm of legitimacy MARK<SC>:! dgg<-too tough to shut down provable pirate boards. dgg<-would you care to clarify? gm) burn em out <he he> MARK<SC>: yes MARK<SC>: Just tell a 14 year old kid that he and his MARK<SC>: parents will go to jail if the BBS stays up another week that was enough for me! MARK<SC>: ga Mike Sch:! Mark S(BI):! MATT SINGER: WHO IS MR MAD_DOG? Mike Sch: Please, ! Erik W. (Kyan): matt, private investigator for Atari who shut down pirate boards dgg<: >bang< Hang on folks. dgg<-Gary, you there?ga Gary Y(Catalog): yup Mark S(BI) ME? Gary Y(Catalog): I can clarify. Gary Y(Catalog): Mark, why don't you go first. Mark S(BI): No Gary, go ahead. dgg<-Mark ga. Gary Y(Catalog): OK, well, I don't want to go into too many details, and Gary Y(Catalog): I certainly don't know anything about the specifics of Gary Y(Catalog): MARK<SC>'s relationship with 'Mr. Mad Dog'. Gary Y(Catalog): But I do want to STRESS that there are LEGITIMATE Gary Y(Catalog): ways to stop people from distributing software Gary Y(Catalog): thru BBS's, user groups, and shady mail order outlets Gary Y(Catalog): that do not involve prosection. You don't have Gary Y(Catalog): to go that far to be effective. Mad Dog Gary Y(Catalog): might have used scare tactics and intimidation, but Gary Y(Catalog): he was perfectly legitimate, and totally legal. Gary Y(Catalog): I, for one, don't want to sit by why our market is Gary Y(Catalog): being 'raped' by thieves. Gary Y(Catalog): ga dgg<-Thanks dgg<-Ok, I did it dgg<-lost my place Clay (ANALOG):! dgg<-have the following gm) im next P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -9- ********************************* dgg<-GM, Mark S, dgg<-Dick b, Kyan, Yost, Matt, Mike Sch, gm) is that a ga? dgg<-then Clay Walnum. ga gm. gm: Ok I find it very ironic that Antic and Analog have dominated this discussion gm: They are the biggest promoters of Piracy around! Erik W. (Kyan): oooh! Mike Sch: Uh-oh! gm: That got you attention didn't it. Let me enlarge that statement Clay (ANALOG): PLEASE do! gm: in the last issue of Analog the first full page ad you see on page 5 is for dgg<-Very _carefully_ <grin>. gm: nothing but COPY programs. Francis Russo: Which issue? gm: they copy anything ! Cartridges, protected disks, they will even send a dgg<-Please std by, Francis. gm: protected program over the modem! Francis Russo: Ah, I know it. gm: The if you dig a little deeper you can find 4 or 5 more ads for other Mike Sch:! dgg<-this is no longer carried by either mag. gm: copy programs! Now if someone reads Antic and Analog every month he reads dgg<-and brings up another issue. gm: 10 ads for copy programs! Now if that many people are advertising copy dgg<-which is the right to backups. gm: programs and the magazines say its ok to advertise them how can it be bad gm: to copy a program?????? Clay (ANALOG):! dgg<-Clay, you want to hit that one?ga Mark S(BI): ME? gm: I know both magazines say they can not stop the ads but that is pure BS Clay (ANALOG): Whew! You bet! Mark S(BI): THIS IS ALL IRRELEVANT TO THE REAL PROBLEM! dgg<-Hang on. Mark S(BI): PLEASE CAN I TALK NOW MARTY WILSON) It is indeed relevant! dgg<-Clay has floor, then you Mark. Clay (ANALOG): shalmark can go if I go next, ok? gm: I owned a magazine for the Sanyo 555 and we put in the rate card no copy dgg<-Mark,ga gm: when did I loose the floor?? Mark S(BI):* dgg<-After the ??????, but you may have it back when Mark is done. Mark S(BI): I think that it is all very well to talk Mark S(BI): about education and prosecution, but the real problem pirate Mark S(BI): is the CASUAL pirate (the one who lives next door) Mark S(BI): We can all prosecute the commercial pirate, and we can all Mark S(BI): prosecute the BBS, but ultimately, the main problem is the mass amount Mark S(BI): of software being stolen by the casuals. ! Mark R(OSS): }i! Mark S(BI): A hardware solution would help stop these people. Let me give some examples Mark S(BI): We have been selling Paperclip on the 8bit CBM and Atari for Mark S(BI): a numbe of years with hardware solutions. THESE products are Steve Ahlstrom) People have been making and selling pirate keys for $5.00 Mark S(BI): still our flagship products and are selling really well P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -10- ********************************* Mike Sch: That was my comment, Steve. Mark S(BI): Thast is YEARS (not months). Due to technical reasons, Mark S(BI): we cannot do this on the ST. Why does ATARI not solve our Mark S(BI): problem by a $5 hardware solution that will allow a simple piece Mark S(BI): of plastic Mark S(BI): to be placed inside. Sure, this will not stop everyone Matt R(ANALOG): (Can I download this later?) Mark S(BI): but it will stop most people. Thieves will still get it free Mark S(BI): but the majority of people are HONEST PIRATES, not thieves J. Weaver: Huh? Mark S(BI): If you knew you could go into a supermarket and steal without Erik W. (Kyan): Honest Pirates? Contradiction of terms there? gm: you never heard of an honest pirate?? Matt R(ANALOG): no such animal Matt R(ANALOG):! Mark S(BI): gteting caught, (NO CHANCE AT ALL), would you still steal? gm: Just in canada Matt R(ANALOG): no such thing as an Honest Pirate! Mark S(BI): I contend that most people would! J. Weaver:! Mark S(BI): You are totally naive in talking about eduction and trivializing Matt R(ANALOG): (Will this transcript be available for download later, I got work to do!) MATT SINGER: thanks dgg<: >bang< >bang< Mark S(BI): the problem. The consumer knows better than that.! (This is Mark S(BI): all my personal opinion and can be quoted as such!) ga dgg<-Gentlemen, please help me maintain some semblence of order. dgg<-For general information, this CO is being recorded dgg<-and will be posted to dl8 next week. Matt R(ANALOG): Thanks, back to my CES work Clay. Bye! dgg<-ok gm, your back up, then Clay, then dick.ga dgg<-gm? gm: oh well I was just stating that I owned a magainze adn in the rate card we stated no dgg<-Mr. Walnum, you are up. gm: copy programs would be allowed gm: We had no troubles! gm: ga Clay (ANALOG): me dgg<-Yup, and some defense for legitimate backup?ga<grin> Clay (ANALOG): Well, that's a tough one! (and Gordon dick b:? Clay (ANALOG): was so nice to us at CES <grin>. Clay (ANALOG): This battle has been going on for years, and it's hard to say when it Clay (ANALOG): will end. I could say the obvious, that there are legitmate reasons Clay (ANALOG): for having copy programs, bit I Clay (ANALOG): won't (gee, I just did!). All Clay (ANALOG): I can say is that some of the more offensive ads have been removed Clay (ANALOG): and others are under consideration. I can understand Gordon's concern, gm: How about equal time for anti piracy ads? MARTY WILSON:! ? Alan Page:! Clay (ANALOG): Gee, I lost another line. What was the last Clay (ANALOG): thing I said? P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -11- ********************************* dgg<-Gordon's concern.ga Clay (ANALOG): Thanks (blush). I wanted also to Clay (ANALOG): comment on something Tom said earlier Clay (ANALOG): since I think my comment about ANALOG Clay (ANALOG): not being effected directly by piracy Clay (ANALOG): was misunderstood. All I meant was Clay (ANALOG): since we offer most our programs Clay (ANALOG): to the public domain (take a look in Clay (ANALOG): the DLs right here) that they can't Clay (ANALOG): really be stolen. Obviously, we Clay (ANALOG): don't mean that to mean there's no Clay (ANALOG): problem in general! John D.(QMI):! Clay (ANALOG): We need our advertisers, and ultimately the existence of the Clay (ANALOG): machine itself is at stake! Without either Clay (ANALOG): we're down the tubes. Besides, all these Clay (ANALOG): people here, and all our other advertises and developers are our FRIENDS! Clay (ANALOG): ga dgg<-Thanks, Clay. dgg<-ok let me note that we are 1 1/2 hours into this CO. dgg<-and the batting order is Mark S, Dick B., Gary Yost. Erik W. (Kyan): sheesh! dgg<-Matt Singer, Mike Schoenbach Erik W. (Kyan): <--just got wiped off the queue dgg<-Francis Russo, Mark Rose dgg<-Hehe, typo YOure after Dick B. Erik. dgg<-ga, Dick B. dick b: What's the problem with the SPA? Lack of interest or lack of organized Erik W. (Kyan): yup, thx dick b: support? dick b: I have to agree with Gordon. dick b: the magazine ads are very bad. dick b: they sent one hell of a message to the users. dick b: and are an insult to developers. dick b: the magazines that expect us to protect their intellectual property. dick b: in the print media are saying to the developers. dick b: that they don't care if their rights in electronic intellectual property dick b: are violated. ga gm: hear hear! Clay (ANALOG): we DO care! J. Weaver: Amen. dgg<-Thanks, Dick, Gordon, et all dgg<-Erik, thanks for your patience. ga Erik W. (Kyan):* Erik W. (Kyan): okay, first Erik W. (Kyan): I do not think that there is one among us here Erik W. (Kyan): who disagress that copy protection is NOT the asnwer to piracy Erik W. (Kyan): am I correct in this assumption (y/n)? MARTY WILSON: y y Clay (ANALOG): y Kevin B: y Mike Sch: y Mark S(BI): Y software protection. Dan R: y Bill Turczynski: y Mark R.(OSS): Not an answer, but perhaps a help? (but I don't like it!) P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -12- ********************************* STANLEY FINCHLEY) y Erik W. (Kyan): schemes (software/hardware/firmware) will _always_ be broken dgg<-Chmn judiciously abstains<grin> ayes have it. gm: y John D.(QMI): 90%yes J. Weaver: y Erik W. (Kyan): and it is impossible to develop wosftware w/o copying your stuff Erik W. (Kyan): on hard disk and/or RAMdisk Erik W. (Kyan): this $5 hardware solution is not the answer Erik W. (Kyan): ga dgg<-Thanks, Erik MARTY WILSON:! dgg<-Mark R, Marty Wilson, and Alan Page. Gary Y(Catalog):? Mark R.(OSS):* dgg<-I didn't show your order but your on the list dgg<-Gary you were up anyhow.ga Gary Y(Catalog):* Gary Y(Catalog): About copy programs. Since we're all agreed that Gary Y(Catalog): copy protection isn't the answer to piracy, it stands Gary Y(Catalog): to follow that we're all going to drop copy protection Gary Y(Catalog): (if we haven't already). If we do that, then these Gary Y(Catalog): copy program companies will go out of business overnight. Gary Y(Catalog): Companies like Central Point wouldn't have gotten SO LARGE Gary Y(Catalog): without serving a real need. And people do have Gary Y(Catalog): a real need to back up protected software (honest ones Gary Y(Catalog): do, anyhow). If we stop protecting out stuff, the Clay (ANALOG): Thanks, Gary. Gary Y(Catalog): point becomes moot. ga dgg<-Thanks, gary dgg<-Matt Singer you still here? dgg<-ga MATT SINGER: more or less, thanks gm:! MATT SINGER: Ive got an hours worth of comments Ill sqeexze into 2 minutes. MATT SINGER: First, Id like to say that while copy protection may not be an answer, MATT SINGER: a way around this is for software that is too large to be put on a disk. MATT SINGER: This is similar to the OSS supercart. It was a good idea on the XL machine MATT SINGER: because even if you got a pirate copy on disk, it was too big to J. Weaver: Would _you_ buy an 801k RAMDISK program? dgg<-Matt, on the ST you'd need a multi-meg program with HD's Mark S(BI): How do you do that with mulitasking (or desk accessories?) dgg<-ga dgg<: bang< dgg<-Matt? MATT SINGER: Im not doing well MATT SINGER: dont make it difficult to pirate, make it unusable in another form. MATT SINGER: One last comment MATT SINGER: Make that 2 MATT SINGER: Everyone has been saying how by prosecuting the little guy, they MATT SINGER: come off as big brother and the bad guy, but has anyone done it? MATT SINGER: Lotus has sued a few, but have any MATT SINGER: gone to court? has anyone gone to jail? MATT SINGER: Last comment P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -13- ********************************* MATT SINGER: software cannot be return. I for one have spent many, many MATT SINGER: hundreds of dollars on software that I found out too late MATT SINGER: would not fit my needs Until there is a better way than MATT SINGER: the five minute dealer demo end ie ga dgg<-Matt, That's why dgg<-I as a user pay the extra 10-20% and buy from a local retailer dgg<-but some of the authors may wish to respond dgg<-any volunteers? dgg<-ga MATT SINGER: but can you return it, if it turns out you cant use it? Erik W. (Kyan): wouldja believe we sell all our products unprotected and w/ money back guarantee!? J. Weaver:! dgg<-Ga, JW. J. Weaver: Check out the Factory Programming warranty in DL8-we not only guarantee MATT SINGER:! J. Weaver: that the program will work as we say it will, but we back it up with direct J. Weaver: support and a money-back guarantee. ga dgg<-Matt, continue. ga gm: so does Michtron! MATT SINGER: If I read the MI-TERM card right, If If buy it MATT SINGER: for a retail price, Michtron would MATT SINGER: only refund dealer cost some MATT SINGER: money back! J. Weaver:* dgg<-Let's hold Mark S(BI): What does this all have to do with piracy? dgg<-the details of guarantees John D.(QMI): (right!) MATT SINGER: What it has to do, dgg<-I concur, Mark except that the pirates dgg<-excuse themselves for accepting copies to "see if it works" MATT SINGER: is why should I buy something that might not meet my needs, if I am dgg<-(no offencs Matt). dgg<-Also, for all but the $500 packages dgg<-wholesale and retail are very close. MATT SINGER: say what??? 40pts! dgg<-Don't follow, Matt? MATT SINGER: you say retail and wholesale are very close???? gm: We also offer to exchange it at full value for any of our other 25 products! dgg<-Well, 40% of $30 is $12, by me that is close. Mark S(BI): A good dealer lets you see if it works! Try returning a car! Please return to Mark S(BI): the subject! Erik W. (Kyan): lets not get into plocy war here dgg<-Thanks, gentlemen MATT SINGER: Im not trying to start a war J. Weaver: You could always call first and ask dgg<-Mike Schoenbach is next, after Matt's final comments. Matt, ga MATT SINGER: you might as well play with a pirated copy first. MATT SINGER: Im done thanks for the time Mike Sch:* dgg<-(matt=mike) Mike Sch: A few comments Mike Sch: Before, someone mentioned that the trading software P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -14- ********************************* ROB CLEMENTS:! Mike Sch: with the "guy next door" is more of a concern then Mike Sch: pirate BBSs. While I agree both are terrible, it is the Mike Sch: pirate BBSs that are really the problem. After all, a BBS Mike Sch: receives maybe 20-30 calls a day and if each person Erik W. (Kyan): _evry_ kind of s/w thievery is the prob Mike Sch: downloads a pirated file, then there are 20 more copies Mike Sch: distributed. And pirate BBSs can be shut down, correct? Mike Sch: I think you should pay closer attention to that. Mike Sch: Next Mike Sch: I'm glad Mark mentioned Paperclip before Mike Sch: I found they key to be a terrible addition to the program. Mike Sch: And if Paperclip wasn't the product that it is, or I felt Mike Sch: that I can get an equivilent unprotected program, Mike Sch: I would never have purchased it. Has anyone ever stopped Mike Sch: to think if these protection schemes can be attributed to Mike Sch: loss of sales also? I personally will only buy Mike Sch: protected software as a last resort. I can't stand it at all. Mark S(BI):! Mike Sch: In addition, there are people selling those Mike Sch: Paperclip keys for $5 as Steve said here on the island dgg<-In any form of "innocent" piracy, it is an exponential equation dgg<: >bang< Mike Sch: not to mention, I believe, there is a version of it that dgg<-and I am going to interrupt here. Mike Sch: doesn't use the key at all. (Am I talking to long?) dgg<-hehe dgg<-No, but I would like to reserve. dgg<-individual policy statements. dgg<-to follow up CO on separate channels dgg<-if the authors are available dgg<-also, we are past 2 hours. dgg<-and I wanted to give Francis Russo, dgg<-Marty Wilson, Alan Page, and Rob Clements a chance. dgg<-Gordon you got your turn earlier, and I will then return. Mike Sch: (shucks, and I had another juicy comment to add. Oh-well) dgg<-to break us up into separate channels. Mark R.(OSS): Dave: At one point I was after Francis. (?) dgg<-once I get final statements. dgg<-You are, Mark, and I have not heard much from you, so I will dgg<-leave you in there. ga dgg<-Francis? Your turn (finally).ga dgg<-Ok, Mark R @OSS,ga Mark R(OSS):* Mark R(OSS): I think Matt did bring up a point that IS relevant to the Mark R(OSS): piracy issue. Users do have a right to make sure a piece Mark R(OSS): of software will do their job. I agree with Dave that one Mark R(OSS): way to ensure that is to buy locally. This brings up the Mark R(OSS): subject of rights for both users and developers. One Mark R(OSS): point of view often mentioned is that piracy will lessen Mark R(OSS): if software prices come down. I don't think Atari software Mark R(OSS): is very expensive right now, but even if it were, that would Mark R(OSS): not legitimize piracy. Developers have a right to charge Mark R(OSS): whatever they want, and users have a right not to buy software Mark R(OSS): they feel is too expensive. I suppose these comments are along Mark R(OSS): the lines of user education, so I'll close by agreeing with Mark R(OSS): Gary that education is the only currently viable Mark R(OSS): path to follow for reducing piracy. ga. dgg<-Thank you Mark P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -15- ********************************* dgg<-Mr Duberman, welcome. David Duberman (Sha) Thank you dgg<-Ok, Marty Wilson? MARTY WILSON:* MARTY WILSON: Thank you. While not being an avid supporter of MARTY WILSON: protection, I would still like to quickly MARTY WILSON: raise the issue of this process of MARTY WILSON: laser burning holes in disks. Is this a viable MARTY WILSON: solution. Any comments? ! John D.(QMI): (costly) MARTY WILSON: ga TH You burn a hole in the disk, they (Mark S(BI):! patch the program around the check. ga gm: I don't like to use protected software! I don't want to sell protected software dgg<-Thanks, Hang on, gordon. dgg<-Alan Page? MARTY WILSON: THANK YOU ALL. Alan Page:* Alan Page: First comment. I don't know it low prices will discourage piracy Alan Page: 'IN fact, I feel like a guinea pig cause Flash is priced Alan Page: relatively low, If I get screwed by pirates Alan Page: then I'm out of the software business Period. I can't afford Alan Page: to spend 6 months on a program then see royalties dry up. ditto. Alan Page: Second comment Alan Page: I'd like to ask Analog to comment on the AD for 'wedgwood rental' Alan Page: in the latest issue. It seems to be nothing more than Alan Page: blatant piracy, offering 80% off for mail order copies of Alan Page: software. That REALLY burns me up, especially the tone of the ad. Alan Page: Comment from Analog? Alan Page: ga Clay (ANALOG):* dgg<-Robert Clements, would you hold while I let Clay respond? ROB CLEMENTS: ok Clay (ANALOG): Luckily I just happen to have the new issue in my lap! I don't really Alan Page: Page 103 Clay (ANALOG): have anything to do with ANALOGs policies on ads. Clay (ANALOG): I can only say that Clay (ANALOG): we definitely look into all complaints made by people who find Erik W. (Kyan):!(1-line comment) Clay (ANALOG): any ads offensive. The rental Clay (ANALOG): business is one that is really in a grey area. ga dgg<-Isn't commercial loaning a violation of (c)? Erik, ga. Then Rob dgg<-ga Clay (ANALOG): I don't know the answe to that one. Erik W. (Kyan): _personal_ comment: Ads give $$ to magsno matter if for or against piracy.ga John D.(QMI): no. (video tapes?) Clay (ANALOG): But if we p*ss off Clay (ANALOG): other advertisers we haven't gained anythng! respect? dgg<-John, it depends on the contract, Right Dick? dgg<-Ok, I'm even breaking down. dick b: Sorry! Not my field! dgg<-lets here a short 2 liner from everyone. ROB CLEMENTS:? P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -16- ********************************* dgg<-including a channel (starting with one) on which they will Erik W. (Kyan): I move we let Rob finsih Mark S(BI):! dgg<-take direct inquiries dgg<-after Rob finishes. dgg<-ga Rob. ROB CLEMENTS: thanks ROB CLEMENTS: just a sec ROB CLEMENTS: since anything loaded into rom can probably be copied ROB CLEMENTS: even tho some protection methods may require a programmer w/20 yrs experience ROB CLEMENTS: and w/ the advent of a hard drive for the ST. ROB CLEMENTS: I was thinking that one method of protection might be a customizing of each ROB CLEMENTS: piece of software so that it would become integrated w/other pieces of softwr ROB CLEMENTS: that a user might use. ROB CLEMENTS: so that it might have their name, maybe their crdt card # configuration entered dgg<-Nice idea, Rob, but the hardware mix is trouble enough! No stds. ROB CLEMENTS: into the code in various ways so it would be difficult to remove ROB CLEMENTS: and. dgg<-Plus, someone will pull out a disk zap and run arround the code. ROB CLEMENTS: if they copy it, their names would be listed in the pirated program ROB CLEMENTS: I know about hardware problem. ROB CLEMENTS: however. ROB CLEMENTS: people who give away software ROB CLEMENTS: are devaluating the value of my purchased software as well as theirs ROB CLEMENTS: and its hard to accept ROB CLEMENTS: also, ROB CLEMENTS: as far as software companies ROB CLEMENTS: making money. ROB CLEMENTS: from what i've experienced. ROB CLEMENTS: the stores carry very little software. ROB CLEMENTS: and many people are more user oriented anyway ROB CLEMENTS: unfortunately even the ST itself isnt well known ROB CLEMENTS: because of the almighty power of advertizing ROB CLEMENTS: I think as people become aware of the ST and the Good software available for ROB CLEMENTS: it , the software developers will make moneynot everyone is unethical, and ROB CLEMENTS: thankyou. dgg<-Thanks, Rob. dgg<-I think we lost a line and I hope you are right about dgg<-new ST users! dgg<-Did you want a final line? ga ROB CLEMENTS: ga dgg<-Ok, I am going to ask Dave Duberman to take the lead dgg<-and all developer/publisher's to hold to 3 lines dgg<-with a quick follow up dgg<-and a note that the will/won't be available dgg<-on a side channel post CO. dgg<-also, if we have enough interest dgg<-I would be pleased to hold a follow up CO on this issue. dgg<-Dave, ga. dgg<-Oooops, dgg<-seem to have lost him P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -17- ********************************* dgg<-ok, Mark Skapinker, you can lead.ga Mark S(BI): I hope I am wrong, but I suspect that half the developers here will not Mark S(BI): be here next year due to piracy. Education, good quality software etc may Mark S(BI): help a bit, but none of it is a real solution. Sorry for being a pessimist. Mark S(BI): I will be on channel 1 Mark S(BI): ga dgg<-Thanks, Mark. dgg<-Loosing Russ to Apple dgg<-and with remarks from Tom and Alan dgg<-I too am pessimistic. DG) ? dgg<-Tom, you want to add some thoughts? ga Then DG. Tom H: OK, I think for starters the Atari mags should not allow copier ads. 2) They should get together and publish a concise list of reasons why even casual copying between friends hurts EVERYONE. I'll take chan. 2 ga dgg<-Thanks, Tom dgg<-Gordon you still with us? dgg<-ga dgg<-Alan Page? ga gm: hi Alan Page:* dgg<-Ah gm: I would just like to say I will be in channel 13 Alan Page: I say prosecute the pirate BBS's and software rental places. Alan Page: For the 'casual pirate'-nothing we can do but educate Alan Page: I'm against copy protection of anything but games. Alan Page: ga dgg<-Thanks, Alan, can you take a channel for Flash questions? Alan Page: I'd rather float around-have to leave soon. DG:? dgg<-Clay Walnum, you still here?ga <thanks, Alan> Clay (ANALOG):* Clay (ANALOG): since copy and rental ads seem to be Clay (ANALOG): the issue with magazines, let me say that ANALOG _HAS_ given more than Clay (ANALOG): equal time to anti-piracy education. Also the ad Clay (ANALOG): controversy is under serious consideration by the publishers. I'm sure Clay (ANALOG): some satisfactory solution is in the works. ga dgg<-Thanks, Clay dgg<-I take it your schedule is tight? Clay (ANALOG): if someone wants Clay (ANALOG): to talk with me, I'll stick around. Anyone? DG: one comment please ROB CLEMENTS: clay yes dgg<-DG, ga DG:* Clay (ANALOG): okay, channel 5 ROB CLEMENTS: going now Clay (ANALOG): okay dgg<-Ok, Kyan, Erik?ga Erik W. (Kyan):* Erik W. (Kyan): we will continue to support the Atari Erik W. (Kyan): as long as the people want it. ga dgg<-Thanks, Erik dgg<-I notice folks drifting to the side channels P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -18- ********************************* Mark R(OSS):! ROB CLEMENTS: back Clay (ANALOG): I'm back. sorry dgg<-for interest in a "second session" on this issue dgg<-please vote y or n for me dgg<-then we will continue the wrap up. MARTY WILSON: y Mark R(OSS): y Alan Page: y Clay (ANALOG): y Bill Turczynski) y John D.(QMI): y J. Weaver: y Y Dan R: y gm: y ROB CLEMENTS: y MARTY WILSON: DGG, two quick comments please? dgg<-Users, count 2x developers <grin> gm: fastest the screen has filled up all day dgg<-Shoot, Marty. MARTY WILSON:* MARTY WILSON: Thank you. 1. To put a damper on tele-pirating MARTY WILSON: authors should write programs which consist MARTY WILSON: of many files. People have little patience MARTY WILSON: for d/ling 15 files and 2. Education is MARTY WILSON: very important. People drank and drove and MARTY WILSON: nobody cared, but through continuous education MARTY WILSON: people soon got the message that drinking and driving were MARTY WILSON: socially unacceptable. This is what the software industry MARTY WILSON: needs to do. Thank you. gm: lets have the next co on a wet and rainy day thou. Its really nice out today! Bill Turczynski) Amnen Clay (ANALOG): hehe dgg<-Hehe. Mark R(OSS): That would have to be next October we're past the rainy season in CA dgg<-It is raining fiercely here in Miami. dgg<-Mark R. Your turn. dgg<-ga Mark R(OSS): Suggestions Mags: Educate and don't accept ANY copier ads! Mark R(OSS): Users: Evangelize-- educate your friends and encourage them to educate Mark R(OSS): theirs. Developers: Supply reduced capability demo versions FREE Mark R(OSS): All: Piracy is a euphemism. Use "theft" which better connotes the harm Mark R(OSS): that's done. ga dgg<-Thanks for a very good capstone Mark dgg<-now forgive my weary eyes and fingers Mark R(OSS): BTW channel 3, if it's not taken J. Weaver:? dgg<-but which developers (gordon said 13 3 is yours) dgg<-JW, then you developers. dgg<-please take turns and forgive me J. Weaver: Just wanted to say that Factory Programming will be over on 13 with MichTron. dgg<-my daughters are visiting. J. Weaver: Also, no one's touched on what the end user can do to discourage P I R A C Y . C O 6 / 2 1 / 8 6 Page -19- ********************************* piracy. J. Weaver: 1) Don't buy CP software (so you won't need to buy copy programs). 2) Don't J. Weaver: frequent or support dealers, clubs, magazines, etc. that pirate or encourage J. Weaver: piracy. 3) Don't EVER make a copy or accept an illegal copy of a program. 4) J. Weaver: if you see a pirate in action, call the developer and let him/her know about J. Weaver: it-we'd all appreciate it. See you on 13! ga dgg<-Thanks, JW dgg<-Steve and a friend and I caught a big one here in FT L. hehe dgg<-John, I am not ignoring you, ga. John D.(QMI): Just a couple of quick comments John D.(QMI): Developers have a moral obligation to produce quality software at the John D.(QMI): best price they can afford just as the consumer should honor our work. John D.(QMI): We'll release demo versions of all of our products. John D.(QMI): I have to leave now. Send E-Mail if you have comments to me. John D.(QMI): ga dgg<-Thank you, John, and all the participants here today Erik W: Hey Mike, whereya goin? dick b: Sorry! J. Weaver: <poof> dgg<-tom would you ul raw for me. sure. going to 2. Erik W: poof? ah, a CBer, no doubt dgg<-Thanks to all here Mike Sch: Oh-well You won't be dgg<-and also to Chris Chabris. dgg<-who just joined us MARTY WILSON: happy trails. dgg<-for his tireless efforts in providing XLISP. Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 5 72227,3507 CAP 30 Alan Page 20 70426,1214 LIS 30 Mike Sch. 21 76515,3124 ANC 30 Fred Wade 24 72277,3524 TRO 3 Bill Turczynski 27 76703,4224 KCI 30 Tom H 28 72637,644 SFG 30 Erik W. 30 73765,1252 LTR 30 Brad Hanscom 31 72477,3703 SCS 3 Mark R(OSS 32 76703,207 CAP 1 Mark S(BI) 33 76703,4223 MIA 30 dgg 34 76626,226 DET 30 CHARLES TATAR 35 73277,305 WPL 30 Chris Chabris 36 71446,1362 DET 13 J. Weaver Jr. 39 72337,13 HAR 5 Clay (ANALOG) 40 70775,712 MIA 30 Dan R. 43 76703,2011 CSJ 30 dick b. 50 71066,337 SYR 1 John D.(QMI) 55 71415,1231 IND 5 ROB CLEMENTS 71 70150,366 DET 30 gm 72 70247,1640 KOP 30 Kevin B dgg<: meeting adjourned<